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Vinyl Flat & Groovy Pouch

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DR.J, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    Can you try it a 2nd time to get it completely flat? Is that not recommended?
     
  2. dasacco

    dasacco Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachussetts
    I fixed another LP last night. It had a small, but sharp edge warp, enough to make the stylus jump when it played. I tried a three hour cycle it helped slightly. I then did a four hour cycle and it was flat enough to play, albeit with a tiny "bump" I could hear. I don't know if a five hour cycle would eliminate it completely, but at four hours it was enough so I could play it, so I'm good with that.
     
  3. bubba-ho-tep

    bubba-ho-tep Forum Resident

    Location:
    Texas
    I'm doing another 1 hour and 45 minute cycle to try to get rid of some dishing.
     
  4. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Anyone have experience with this and bowl shaped records?
     
  5. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    Been using my VF and GP for a couple weeks.

    My observations so far (YMMV):

    1. Newly pressed records that are warped have been easier to flatten than warped records from the 60's and 70's.
    2. Edge warps are harder to remove than full waves or dishes.
    3. Short cycles of 1 to 3 hours barely reduce warps.
    4. Most newer records (180 to 200g) I've tried require about 5 to 6 hours to reduce warps to a playable level.
    6. Warped records from the 60's and 70's required 12 to 20 hours, and only slightly reduced the warps on the first try. I'll do follow-up cycles and post results.
    7. Even after 20 hours, I saw no orange peel at all. My VF has the felt mat rings. I clean the records first, and only tightened the screw 1/4 turn past snug.
    8. I've not heard any increase in surface noise or reduction in sound quality after using the VF in the GP. It appears to do no harm to the record.
     
    4stringking73 likes this.
  6. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    Your report pretty much sums up my experience with the vinyl flat. Except I get orange peel anytime I go past an hour or so. And to actually get rid of a warp, I've consistently needed to heat the records for at least three to four hours. The orange peel is most noticeable in the deadwax. Not good looking if the record had previously mint looking surfaces. Luckily, I've noticed no increase in surface noise. Wonder how I can keep from getting orange peel? I afraid the orange peel look would potentially harm the value of some of my more collectible LPs.


    I have also notice that edgewarps are a big challenge to remove.
     
  7. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    I tried a 1970s UK record with a pronounced dish warp a couple sessions for about six hours, with no change to the shape of the record. When I took it out of the vinyl flat, the bowl shape would spring right back. Unfortunately, the record started to exhibit 'orange peel" in the deadwax. So I decided to hold off using the vinyl flat any further on that record.
     
  8. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    I have a bowl shaped record pressed in 1964. Twenty hours in the VF/GP reduced it perhaps 10%. I was surprised, since I was having great success with my newer warped/dished/bowled records. Seems there is "memory" to the warp. I'm going to try if for 24 hours next time. Luckily, I saw no orange peel after 20 hours.

    Two bowl shaped records, pressed in 2012, came out nearly flat, and certainly playable, after 6 to 12 hour cycles.
     
  9. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    Sorry to hear about the orange peel. I'm not sure why mine are not doing same??
     
  10. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA

    Hmm... Interesting. I wonder what it is about newer records that are easier to flatten?
     
  11. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    I think it's just memory. New records only being warped for a year, vs an old record that's been warped for almost 50 years.
     
  12. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    That makes sense. I have a beautiful copy of Tom Wait's Heart of Saturday Night that's unfortunately a little bowl shaped. I'm exploring options to flatten it.
     
  13. TLMusic

    TLMusic Musician & record collector

    The orange peel is a bit hard to see, except under really bright light when held at certain angles. Unfortunately, then it's fairly obvious.

    If a record already had lots of hairline marks from an inner sleeve, the orange peel wouldn't be that noticeable. But when I vinyl flatted a couple pristine looking records, numerous little impressions could be detected, mostly in the deadwax area.
     
  14. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Orange peel is a sign that the vinyl surface - or even the entire vinyl mass - is being heated too much, at least, past a uniform plastic deformation point. Thats the one thing I've worried about when heating a record. The texture you see is in the grooves as well. Does the pouch have an ability to set a temperature? Of course, the thermistor may not permit a truly stabilized temperature.

    I've used hot water before to fix localized warps but haven't perfected the system. Water will transfer is heat evenly & equally across the entire record surface including in the grooves. A physical contact system will not. The lands or top of the grooves are being directly heated while the groove walls are not. So they have to, in essence, 'catch up' by heat transfer. Its this unequal heating where the fundamental problem lies. If the heat is being directly applied then it has to be lo and slow and slowly upped or increased to a specific temperature for the vinyl formulation and mass.

    I used a large bowl and dipped the warped area in the water then rotated the record back & forth so the warped area remains in the hot water for a minute or so and the area around it is heated a little less, so as to prevent new warps at the junction of the warmed and un-warmed area. What I've learned is every piece of vinyl has a specific temperature point at which the plastic deformation stage becomes, in simple terms, liquid. Just like butter. This transformation point is hyper critical. And therein lies the problem: every vinyl formulation reaches that stage at a different temperature. Throw in the differing masses of records and knowing exactly what temperature to apply to a record (in order to equally and evenly heat the entire mass up to a low plastic deformation point at which point it can be pressed and allowed to cool) and you can see why un-warping a record without damage is so difficult. aargh.
     
  15. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Anyone know what temperature the groovy pouch actually operates at? The site describes it as "lower temperatures than an oven" but doesn't specify.
     
  16. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    The current ones operate at 150 degrees - these are the ones where an hour is recommended. If you have a version from say, 4 months ago, those are at 130 degrees. This is the one where you can leave it for 8 hours, etc. with no damage.

    75 minutes at 150 degrees is gonna make some good oranges.
     
    Aftermath likes this.
  17. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    I've found one hour is useless. Even three hours does next to nothing. Five hours is pretty much my beginning point now.
     
  18. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    With the 150 degree or 130 degree pouch?
     
  19. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    It must be the 150, because I just got it a couple weeks ago.
     
  20. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I may get one and see if using an oven at 90 degrees, overnight or longer, works out.
     
  21. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    In many parts of the country ambient and/or room temperatures where vinyl is kept gets to 90, so don't expect much luck at that temperature. Thats just a warm summer day. Vinyl seems to get to the early deformation or plastic stage starting around 135. As I mentioned, this varies from record to record because they are all a bit differently made. If you use a worthless warped LP, start out at 120.
     
  22. mikeyt

    mikeyt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA

    Ah, I see. Maybe I was being silly, but I was thinking of baking records like baking kale chips. Hot enough to cook but not actually burn, and the result is deliciousness.
     
  23. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans
    Really, don't leave an oven on like that. If you do the oven method, they recommend verifying the temperature with a thermometer first - and it should be no greater than 150. You also have to make sure that your oven can go that low - otherwise you're gonna need one of those toaster ovens that hold a pizza, etc. You're supposed to start out at 45 minutes this way.
     
  24. Preston

    Preston Forum Resident

    Location:
    KCMO Metro USA
    My experiences are the same as yours (good summary, BTW). Last weekend, I accidentally left a record in for 24 hours and it was fine. I don't think that the Groovy Pouch gets the vinyl hot enough to melt it, as some have speculated. The only differences I have from your observations are that I have the hard, acrylic rings and I tightened the wing nut down pretty tight. My reasoning being that heat and pressure should work together to greater effect. YMMV. Oh, and those edge warps are almost impossible to get out, but I've noticed that they seem to be less audible, even though the warp hasn't been removed. It's not a miracle worker, but it is a worthwhile addition to our vinyl tool set.
     
  25. tubesandvinyl

    tubesandvinyl Forum Resident

    Hi Preston,

    Good feedback. I agree with you; it's not a miracle worker, but certainly a valuable tool.

    I tried that bowl shaped record from 1964 again. Round two was 20 hours in the VF/GP, and round three was about 15 hours. It reduced the bowl warp to about 40% of target. Still not play grade for me because I wouldn't want to mess up my cartridge. That's a total of about 60 hours. I'm giving up on that record.

    Grabbed an almost-as-bad bowl warp early 70's record. First round was 12 hours and it pretty much got the record to target. Certainly playable. In total, I've now rescued about 12 records, so I'm very pleased with the product. I wouldn't recommend buying it if a person only has a couple warped records. But if you have at least 10 warpers, the VF/GP pouch will probably pay for itself.
     
    mikeyt likes this.

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